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Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 08:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
SO,
After a couple years of school, and some amazing instructors, I have begun to develop and refine my perception of sociocultural interactions and the scaffolding they occur within. One of my perceptions that has undergone a changing and reattenuation of its lens is that of our media and its representation of women.
Now my question to both you, the beta players and the developers of Dust 514, is what do you think of the overtly sexualized female character models? The accentuated breasts, the apparent necessity of the female character models to go into combat in high heel wedge boot, or the obvious need for the models to swing their hips in a sexy saunter while the male models are able to calmly strut around? Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist? Especially when, if one takes a moment to think about it, would not want their mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt or any other women of regard in their lives to be portrayed in said like manner.
I could be going out on a limb by making a grand generalization as that, but I feel that I am not that far off base.
SO, if you have an opinion about this, I would love to hear it. I think this is a relevant today, given how, through our inundation via mass media and technology, we are constantly enculturated and socialized with what are the socially and culturally acceptable forms of representation of self and others, how we choose to interact with those identities, and what level of empathic understanding we apply to them. This is to be inclusive of socializing the behavior of objectification for the purpose of commodification so as to produce and accumulate material wealth.
Kind of like killing for profit. Maybe it's not so bad since we are clones? But do you think realistically a woman would want to make sure to sway her hips while int he process of preparing to go into combat and commit mass murder? I mean really? |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:First off you have to understand the decisions behind the adjustments between male and female.
For example female skeletons are very different from males. They cope with movement differently.
Also there is psychological selling point.
To better explain this aspect I'll present to you Mr. Afro Sam Jackson. African American sort of person, all dressed up like a thug from the hood in his 'blinging' ride. To not sell this image at all would to have this character voiced by the whitest nerdy voice you can think of. Dust 514 doesn't give player characters a voice of their own other than the death grunt and breathing so the only other visual indicator left from afar is movement.
So back to dust 514. We have the issue of throwing women into the same suits as the men and giving them the same animations and model. How can you tell they are female other than the designation on their ID card?
Enlarged Breasts, a very natural organ most females have, is something that isn't very comfortable to squash them into the extremely flat required position onto the body in the pressurized augmented dropsuit?
Pressure suits are extremely uncomfortable, if our current ones we use in NASA causes nails to be torn off in the gloves can you imagine what abrasions you can get if you squash an organ like that? Another example is the US army is finding out that Small Body armor traditionally designed for men is still getting women killed (blame goes to the body armor when the body armor fails to do its job in the prescribed environment where it should have worked) because the vests inefficiencies are not accounting for the fact women's bodies ARE different.
Bottom line, we could have kept it the generic male clones around but that is not appealing to female characters wanting to play their gender or men wanting to play as females.
While you may argue sexualizing the female characters, why are you not complaining about sexualization of the male characters?
That is because currently in the context of Dust 514, there is NO sexualization of the male gender through the artistic rendition of the character models. On the other hand there is an obvious hypersexualization to the female gender. What I find disturbing is the fact that of how you justify such action with the statement "why are you not asking about what is being done to men?". You still would want any woman in your life to be treated or represented as such, yet in the game that you want to blow some steam off in, well, that is COMPLETELY OK. As a matter of fact, the complete reification of any person is obviously ok to you, for the sake of promoting and selling a product.
I am pointing out the hypocrisy that is being presented here while at the same time pointing out the fact that YOUR passive acceptance, and quite honestly also your tacit consent, of these occurrences without you even batting an eyelash or even questioning it is the real issue. These kind of placid acceptance of demeaning and sexist observations and interactions is what allows for such things to exist as the commodification and whole sale promotion of the salability of any human being. These kind of actions lead to the justification and perpetuation of any kind of situation that produces mental, physical, economic, and emotional slavery.
So how about when you start touting evidence, such as the examples that you brought up, I would enjoy seeing where you found such evidence so that I may take a moment, read it, and be able to further understand your point.
Honestly though I think your response is analogous of what a hegemonic order does to those that find fault in the status quo; attack, discredit, demoralize, and if all those don't work, co-opt commodify and commercialize.
But that was a nice try. Try again please.
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Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Django Quik wrote:And the ... wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that! I like it. I've seen women walk like that before. If I were female, I'd walk like that 24/7.
Really??? So are you a deeply misunderstood transsexual? If you are, more power to you. Just don't use it as a shield or a means to justify demeaning behavior. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
BestNameEva wrote:I'm pretty sure a woman in death Armour would want to be comfortable, that means making space for those lovely things in front.
And how do you know when the suit comes off she isn't vomit inducing?
Ill be honest apart from the scout I never even notice if its a woman
BS> Really. I guess that saying is true, that if you keep telling yourself a lie over and over again that one day you WILL believe it. Keeping saying it. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 15:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.
That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!
Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented?
I brought up a request in the Feedback section asking CCP if they were going to allow greater model customization in the future. But your point is valid. The other item I am bringing to peoples attention is not just the model representation of the female gender, but also how we choose to represent them allows for a greater portion of the population to justify actions that inevitably objectify, commodify, and sells women to a predominantly male audience and player base.
I have a wife, a mother, sisters, grandmothers, aunts, cousins; all incredibly strong women in my life that I would be a lesser man, let alone a lesser person if it wasn't for them. So for me to continue to turn a blind eye to this blatant and wholesale production of an environment that promotes the hypersexualization and salability of any human is inhuman.
TBQH, I ma enjoying the discussion. It is rather raising the bar here away from the standard trolling that goes on within some threads. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Lofl youre kidding me right? Youre seriously focused on the fact that they gave the female avatars definition? What you want? A super dyke butch female built and carrying dumbbells? Its a game we stereotype females as having nice figures.
You want a fat girl? Perhaps double d's with a beer gut and a limp? Throw in a black eye? Not all men are built the way they're portrayed in this game, we don't whine. Although some of us do have jobs and visit the gym regularly.
Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.
NOPE. People such as yourself are what help continue the race and gender wars that continue to plague humanity. I like the game, and I enjoy a lot of the other interactions that come with it, but that doesn't mean that I should except STEREOTYPES.
TBQH I find your sexist and obviously homophobic statements to be DISTURBING. You did read what you typed out BEFORE hitting the send button, right? What is wrong if a woman does happen to be more masculine in her dress and also physically built larger than, say, yourself? Does that scare you? And why do you feel the necessity to be such a blatantly misogynistic bigot with your gay bashing comments? Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Do you like to be stereotyped? Do you want your mother thrown into that group of hypersexualized women? Do you have any sisters or daughters, perhaps?
If there is a continuation in the development of the social acceptability in the commodification of women through the products that are developed, promoted and sold to the public and no one questions it, then I, as a member of the greater community of humanity, has failed at what my purpose is; The creation of an equitable understanding between ALL people, inclusive of gender, sexual preference, religion, beliefs or anything else that may be used to justify discrimination, repression, oppression or any other kind of marginalization. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Odiain Suliis wrote:ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:You do understand that cloning technology has come to a point where you can look like what ever you want?
So please tell me who wouldn't make him/herself the image of a perfect man/woman. I think the question here is exactly related to this ^ Is this what we have here a representation of a ideal/ perfect woman? And the implications of that viewpoint into things like; If I'm not like that, then should I try to be more like that? If that figure is what is perfect/desireable and I'm not like that, then I'm not perfect/desireable? But anyhows.... This is just game, a entertainment. We each pass on time doing/looking vierd things to pass out time and entertain our self.
That is a cop-out. So just because we are attempting to entertain ourselves, this sort of behavior is OK to perpetuate? I have issues with your logic. It may require you to further explain yourself. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Tzaar Bomba wrote:
Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.
Calm down Tzaar, she is trying to fix the game. And she's trying to have a civilized and well thought out debate over this particular issue because I think everyone agrees the female clones look silly.
Why do you assume that I am a woman? That statement alone is very stereotyped and borderline sexist.
NO, WAIT!!! It IS SEXIST! Don't be so crass as to think that by calling me a "woman" that some how you have emasculated me or invalidated my observations, arguments, or the reality of what is going on in today's consumer culture.
People like you make me fear for the future of humanity. Remind me NOT to allow my daughter to date YOUR son. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 15:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:OP why did you bring this cancer down upon us?
Cancer, have you nothing more constructive to add to the discussion? |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
NovaShadowStorm wrote:Anyanka Shadowmane wrote:To be honest, I wouldn't have said that they were overtly sexualised. The Heavies still lumber around carrying their HMGs and their Forge guns. In fact, during a game, I can't usually tell if any given character is male or female.
I'll certainly take another look, now that you've mentioned it, but I think that dust is considerably better than most games at treating both sexes equally.
In real life, women and men wear the same fatigues, armour and use the same equipment. It's generally very difficult to tell them apart from their male colleagues without seeing their faces or hearing them speak.
In Dust, ALL the characters models, have helmets and are silent. Therefore to match real life, there should just be one character model for each class. However, rather than being lauded for it's realism, that would have the game labeled as sexist for only allowing male characters.
^ This, I've run around battle fields and haven't noticed if a player was female until I ran past their corpse or got up close and personal with my SMG. Personally I think if you're paying that much attention to whether you're fighting a male or female suit on the battlefield then you're likely detracting from your overall gaming experience not to mention you're probably not dodging much either trying to keep them in frame. Compared to many other games Dust barely sexualises their models at all. I mean how sexy can you really be in the end when every inch of your merc is clad head to toe in armour with a helmet stuck on their head? Yes the female suits have accentuated breasts but females have breasts and lets be honest it is the easiest way to tell a female suit from a male one instantly. Secondly As for the heels I can really barely see them, you don't see them as you play and you don't really see them as you walk about in your quarters. The only real time you see them is if you're following some one around the waiting room or happen to be staring at a teammates feet as you run around to which I have to say that you'd be focusing on that wayyyy too much and you probably have some sort of foot fetish. And yes they do have sway in their hips but that is considered a feminine trait, you will find watching a fair few women walk they have some degree of sway.
Thanks again for another perfect example of how you have been socialized into believing in the preexisting, historically established means of reifying women and justifying your overt use of sexist regiments to scaffold your perceptions. Talk to your mother like that "Dust barley sexualizes their models at all." The fact that you forgot to say was the fact that you find that the models ARE sexualized, but in a comparable state to games that ALSO hypersexualize their character models. |
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Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 15:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kasshern s Chrome wrote:This is my thing if you(a female) were to create a character yourselves body type and all 95% of woman will make themselves look like they just came out of a fantasy playboy issue as they do with mosy MMO games..
When do you ever see a FAT GIRL representation of themselves, Most will create someone who in there eyes they wanna be..
Im sorry but i feel that this is the way of the world today same as a male 95% of the time you wont find a guy creating a skimp ass version of themselves you know, There gonna be buff with some overbearing voice and a new persona...When there a fat kid with glasses and soprano toned voice,
viewing it as a sexist act kinda contradicts and has a hint of sexism in it anyway i mean unless your american(which i am) most woman are petite and are very sexual people, you would be underminding yourselves to potray yourself as anything less,
not to mention it brings unification to the table like a uniform school cant make jokes if you all look the same no? just saying
That is bollocks. Women of today have been socialized into those behaviors and perceptions and your active participation in the perpetuation of those kind of perceptions is a bit appalling. The thing is that is doesn't all rest in the laps of men; women also participate in the perpetuation of such objectification.
And because you are American, and as Americans we tout this idea that every one is equal; that our country is equitable, yet you promote this idea that as Americans it is only natural (and thereby a performance of our desire to fulfill our perceived reified ideals) for American's to act in this manner.
I am dumb founded by you skewed logic and I fear for any and all women in your presence.
This is YET ANOTHER example of what we should fear about this line of thought. You seem completely unable to be reflective in your thoughts and actions. Again, do you want your mother, daughter, sister, aunts, or even your wife to be hypersexualized, objectified, commodified, and then sold? |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 16:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Here I thought that this thread would produce an intelligent discussion within these forums, but all I have seen are continued examples of how consumer culture has continued to invade and twist social perceptions through their commodification of reified female sexuality and sexual traits.
The world should have ended on Friday. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 14:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actio Rah wrote:Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Odiain Suliis wrote:ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:You do understand that cloning technology has come to a point where you can look like what ever you want?
So please tell me who wouldn't make him/herself the image of a perfect man/woman. I think the question here is exactly related to this ^ Is this what we have here a representation of a ideal/ perfect woman? And the implications of that viewpoint into things like; If I'm not like that, then should I try to be more like that? If that figure is what is perfect/desireable and I'm not like that, then I'm not perfect/desireable? But anyhows.... This is just game, a entertainment. We each pass on time doing/looking vierd things to pass out time and entertain our self. That is a cop-out. So just because we are attempting to entertain ourselves, this sort of behavior is OK to perpetuate? I have issues with your logic. It may require you to further explain yourself. Ah, nice straw man, so murder is ok in a video game but perpetuating attractive female avatars to further sell your product isn't?
The reference and point of this thread was to bring about an awareness of the hypersexualization of the female character models to the community. The fact that we have commodified the act of committing wholesale murder is another issue.
Here is the logic once again, for your use latter. Everyone's participation in this form of entertainment, myself to be included, is a performance of a certain level of maintained understanding as to the social acceptability of these kind of products. Since the great majority of people of been indoctrinated with the mental understanding that if a product exists, and it is being promoted to us for consumption, then obviously it must be ok. That is because it exists within society. But just because something exists doesn't mean that it should (Darwinism), and just because there is a contemporary incarnation doesn't mean that it can not or should not change to fit the fluctuating dynamics of social acceptability.
I always find it interesting when a person has not greater answer or response to a statement but to either start name calling or to demean the interaction being promoted. In the context of this thread it is a discussion for the purpose of bringing awareness to the occurrence and also to open the discussion of the betterment of our community. Though we engage in this game and on these forums for the purpose of producing a better product for our entrainment, it doesn't mean that we have to be completely out of touch with the reality that what we do here is reflective of what we do in the real world. One world reflect the other, or as Einstein would describe it as the universe reflects itself. What we do in this game will only reaffirm previously held beliefs and understandings, seeding them deeper in our understandings of socially acceptable behaviors.
If we are unable to broach the subject here, in these forums with all of it's attached anonymity, then how do you expect to become comfortable enough with the subject to begin t address these very same issues in the real world? This happens to be a bit safer area due to the fact that you are a little less likely to be beaten physically for your views or candor. Yet I have found that one is more likely to run into the worst of all trolling and thoughtless responses and atrocious behaviors because of the fact the anonymity that is available in these forums. For some reason a number of people in this community perform increasingly more atrocious versions of their character traits. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.27 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Goat of Dover wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Goat of Dover wrote:
These female avatars are depicted rather well as women, outside of the walk which looks like either their suits are to tight or they have a stick in their butts. lol.
These women have slender frames, a basic hour glass shape, decent size breast, decent sized rears, rather thicker shoulders for your average woman(which is usually a sign of athleticism). They actually look some what athletic. At a runners/stamina stand point these women by their virtual look and my own experience as a runner look like they could smoke probably at least 85% of the people playing in this beta.
I was contemplating on this thread and games over doing women's sexual physical identities. CCP had two roads to take in the category of the female body. They could have gone the over athletic female figure which as an athlete I can tell you is a very hard body type to achieve, and most who try cannot get there just do to body style and genetics. Which is sexiest in itself because this promotes the same feelings as a Barbie. I can't look like that and I should look like that or I am not pretty.
Or they could have taken the road that they have taken the cross between athleticism and general average women. In the Gallente suit the avatars body is more noticable, but if you look she does not have a completely flat stomach she actually has a stomach that is there not in a completely wash board abs style. Good sized breast a good sized rear, but they are not over done they are on the average size. Which the women who can never achieve this shape will fill the same way as the category before.
Then they could have taken the third route which does not put women into the game at all. This again is sexist, because it promotes the thought that women are not competent enough to perform on the battle field.
So in conclusion of the choices where would you have like them to have gone with this game. Which route would you have taken. All are sexiest in there own right by your definition of over sexualizing women. I feel that CCP has taken the middle road with this everyone was not going to be happy you can't make them all happy if you try you will only go mad.
On a final note towards the game listed, I am a self respecting man and I loved DOA it is by far one of the most complicated and hardcore fighting games ever made. The combos, counters, grab, and counter grabs are so advanced and responsive that if performed by an advanced players can go on for 15 to 20 seconds before someone even deals damage. These women were oversexualized but was looked past by me and many others(not payed any attention to when you are trying not to lose)do to the complexity and the large amount of skill needed to even be good at this game. These games are still mocked and laughed at due to the way they depict women, even given how good of a game it was by women, men, and gamers alike to this day.
Unless all the women in your life are regulars in Maxim, I think you need to reassess what you think is typical/average for a woman. Everything else you said doesn't even deserve a response. Again Chunky you have misread my post and interpreted it as you would like it to be. Yes the DOA was on a limb but I still stand by the mechanics and fighting in the game are ground breaking and to this day stand as the epitome of tactical fighting imo, yes it is crude the way women are shown in this game but it does not take away from the game play that I defended not the over sexualization of women. My comments were that the women represented in Dust are not average women that they are average athletic women maybe even beyond average. There is beyond a difference in average women and athletic women. If you are stating that the breast size and the size of the avatars butt are beyond average for that of and athletic woman. Then you my friend might need to reassess what a women who could actually perform the way that the women in this game does would look like. Like I myself did when I went and looked at the women of the Olympics on and off the field. You seem to think that I am okay with the over sexualization of women which by far I am completely against, and that my opinion of an average woman is wrong. I have never stated what my average woman looks like No the idiots posting in this thread are not joking they genuinely don't care. I am a father of four with only one daughter. If my daughter looked like this(which she will probably be rather close do to how athletic I require my children to be for their health)when she is grown and was to wear an outfit as of the sort then I would not be ashamed or insulted of the way she looked, but my daughter would be an average athletic woman. Which is what is being depicted in this game. Not a sexual item or an oversexualized image of one either. Lastly why do my other comments not deserve a remark. This is insulting and makes it seem like I have not brought up a valid point. If you do not feel like they are valid please state why.
TBQH,
I didn't even take the time to read this post completely. This is only because what I find most interesting is the fact that you have forgotten that when a person responds to an argument they tend to choose those portions that will support their views and discard those that don't. Surprising, I would say not.
The real focus of this thread, as I started it was an examination of the representation of women in dust via the character models that CCP has chosen to use. Not the mechanics of DOA. That game has immense issues in regard to it's portrayal of women for the purpose of selling a product which thereby promotes the hypersexualization and sociocultural acceptance of such behavior. If you have a daughter, I would imagine that you would prefer to have a sociocultural interactions that would not promote this salability of them.
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Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.27 15:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote:Goat of Dover wrote:As stated IMO DOA was the epitome of fighting games, what do you think killed. wasn't it the boob physics that got that series popular?
Exactly. Hypersexualization. Hell I don't know of any women I spar with that wear that kind of clothing. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.27 15:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Firestorm Zulu wrote:OP maybe takes the cake for biggest nerd on the forum. Just when I thought the community couldn't get any more lame and RPG'd we get captain nerditude talking about his intellectual dilemma with breasts.
If you, have an issue with the discussion such as your brain can't handle the level of analysis and reflective understanding that is occurring within this thread, then you are more than welcome to not participate and to stop reading.
I have no intellectual issue with breasts. I ma rather a large fan of my wife's. Yet that still doesn't justify the commodification of female sexuality for the purpose of selling something, same as to say the commodification of someone's race or heritage for the sake of making a buck (or Euro or Pound sterling or what ever). What this promotes, and that is if you can wrap you small and narrow mind around it, is the basic premise of slavery through the objectification of traits (i.e., reification of stereotypical traits) which allows for them to be commodified and consumed. The very act of commodification also allows for the development of a social understanding that those traits and in turn the people attached to said traits are for sale, i.e., available for slavery.
I find that bit is not a difficult series of dot to connect. But then again I could be wrong. And at least in your case I am. Just make sure to let me know when your in my neighborhood so I know to notify the neighbors to lock the doors and hide the women. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.27 15:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rhadiem wrote:Personally, if I were a woman I'd have an issue not having a face, not being liberally given feminine characteristics. Barbie Dolls have sold to women for decades, and I guarantee it's not a bunch of creepy dads and brothers buying them all to push on their daughters/sisters. A large number of women want to look attractive, and it's not purely the male-dominant society pushing this stuff, it's hardwired in their dna.. just like men love to play violent video games.. and are attracted to females that are pretty. Yes, I'm stereotyping, but the stereotype reflects reality.
you actual believe in that shite that was just spewed from your lips. Hardwired? So are you hardwired to be a misogynistic pig? Stereotypes don't reflect reality, rather stereotypes reflect a reality that people think should exist for the purpose of fulfilling their fears, desires, misconceptions and drive for power and advantage. |
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